Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/23/1994 08:00 AM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 23, 1994
8:00 A.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Mike Miller, Chairman
Senator Loren Leman, Vice Chairman
Senator Al Adams
Senator Fred Zharoff
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Steve Frank
Senator Drue Pearce
Senator Dave Donley
OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Robin Taylor
Representative Carl Moses
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Confirmations to the Board of Fish: Kay Andrew, Dick Bower, and
Larry Engel.
PREVIOUS ACTION
N/A
WITNESS REGISTER
Kate Troll
Southeast Alaska Seiners Association
Juneau, Ak. 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew and opposed Dick Bower.
Wayne Jackson
P.O. Box 8395
Ketchikan, Ak 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Ken Duckett
P.O. Box 3178
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Greg Rice
200 Mattle Rd.
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Geoff Bullock
P.O. Box 6616
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Noel Putman
Ketchikan Sport and Wildlife Club
846 Brown Deer
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
David Bray
2729 Tongass Ave.
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Byron Haley
1002 Pioneer Rd.
Fairbanks, Ak. 99701
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Kay Andrew and Dick Bower.
Bill Henry
1081 Duck Pond Rd.
North Pole, Ak. 99705
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Kay Andrew and Dick Bower. Supported d
Larry Engel.
Stanley Ned
Tanana Chief Conference
122 1st Ave.
Fairbanks, Ak. 99701
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Larry Engel. Opposed Kay Andrew.
Janet McCormick
2700 Davis Rd.
Fairbanks, Ak. 99701
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Kay Andrew and Dick Bower.
Harold Gillam
104 2nd Ave.
Fairbanks, Ak. 99701
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the whole Board of Fish.
Debra Lyons
P.O. Box 296
Petersburg, Ak. 99833
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew and Dick Bower. Opposed d
Larry Engel.
Gordon Jensen
P.O. Box 264
Petersburg, Ak. 99833
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Tim Keener
10819 Spur Hwy #520
Kenai, Ak. 99611
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Dick Bower and Larry Engel.
Noel Woods
Mat-Su
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Larry Engel.
Jim Herman
Mat-Su
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Larry Engel.
Jean Woods
Mat-Su
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Larry Engel.
Lee Putman
6005 Roosevelt Dr.
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew. Opposed Dick Bower and d
Larry Engel.
Charles Polk
8752 Trinity Dr.
Juneau, Ak. 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Beth Stewart, Director
Natural Resources Department
Aleutian East Borough
P.O. Box 33796
Juneau, Ak. 99803
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew, Dick Bower, and Larry
Engel.
Jerry McCune, Presdient
United Fishermen of Alaska
Juneau, Ak. 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Board process.
Frank Charles, Executive Director
Coastal Rivers Fisheries Alliance
Mat-Su
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Kay Andrew. Supported Larry Engel.
No position on Dick Bower.
Larry Engel, Board Nominee
Mat-Su
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew.
Dick Bower, Board Nominee
P.O. Box 3662
Soldotna, Ak. 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Kay Andrew and commented on the
process.
Kay Andrew, Board Nominee
Ketchikan, Ak. 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the Board process.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-38, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN MILLER called the Resources Committee meeting to order at
8:00 a.m. and announced the committee would take testimony on the
Fish Board confirmees.
KATE TROLL, Southeast Alaska Seiners Association, supported Kay
Andrew and opposed Dick Bower. She said the seiners and
gillnetters have had their share of controversial allocation
battles, but they weren't automatically on Ms. Andrew's bandwagon.
At their Ketchikan meeting, she was fair, open, and approachable.
She was a good listener and has an extended knowledge of southeast
fisheries. These qualities made their decision.
She opposed Dick Bower, because, in his House Resources testimony,
he stated his philosophy is that commercial fishing should have a
priority below tourism. She thought our resident commercial fleet
deserves a higher accreditation in mind of a board member. She
thought his interpretation of the Alaska Constitution is
fundamentally flawed, also.
She said she is very nervous about people who are appointed
strictly because they have a strong advocacy role to fulfill.
Realizing you can't avoid conflict of interest, appointment of
people with a particular advocacy is wrong for the process. When
they became aware of Mr. Engel's contract with the Mat-Su Borough,
they became concerned that he might have a particular advocacy role
that might not be in the best interests of the Board.
Number 118
SENATOR LEMAN asked if Mr. Engel took an active role in the defeat
of Debra Lyon last year. MS. TROLL answered yes; what's
troublesome is that he was on full attack based on his hard core
advocacy mission.
JIM BECKER, United Southeast Alaska Gillnetters, strongly supported
the confirmation of Kay Andrew to the Board of Fish. During her
ten months on the Board, her votes have not been based on political
correctness, but on the best factual information made available.
She is fair and capable, he said.
Number 182
SENATOR TAYLOR said many people have indicated to him that Ms.
Andrew is a fine individual who deserves the committee's thorough
consideration. It is unfortunate that we place people in the
position of sitting on very controversial boards before they come
up for confirmation. She has been conscientious and caring and he
highly recommended her to them.
WAYNE JACKSON, Ketchikan, supported Kay Andrew. He knows she is
open minded and makes decisions based on facts.
KEN DUCKETT, Ketchikan, said he has known Kay Andrew for a long
time and supported her confirmation to the Board of Fish. She
makes her judgements based on facts.
GREG RICE, Ketchikan, said he spoke for himself and many other
commercial fishermen of Meyers Chuck and they support Kay Andrew
wholeheartedly. She is clear thinking and conscientious.
GEOFF BULLOCK, Ketchikan, supported Kay Andrew. He thought she was
overqualified for the Board. She is fair and has done an extremely
good job.
NOEL PUTMAN, Ketchikan Sport and Wildlife Club, supported Kay
Andrew. He has known her for a lot of years and said she is honest
and concerned.
Number 302
DAVID BRAY, Ketchikan, supported Kay Andrew, because she is
competent, fair, and open to comments from the public.
BYRON HALEY, Fairbanks, said he was a personal use sport fisherman
and a member of many resource groups. He did not support the
confirmation of Kay Andrew or Dick Bower. The interior river
system need one, preferably two members, from the interior on the
Fish Board - permanently, he urged.
BILL HENRY, North Pole resident, opposed Kay Andrew and Dick Bower,
because they don't represent all of Alaska. He said the chum
salmon runs are so small and this information was given to the
Board of Fish. It is an absolute conservation crisis in western
Alaska in chum salmon and Ms. Andrew and Mr. Bower voted to
increase their catch in Area M. MR. HENRY said he supported Larry
Engel.
STANLEY NED, Tanana Chiefs Conference, supported Larry Engel, but
opposed Kay Andrew because of the conservation issue in Western
Alaska.
JANET MCCORMICK, Fairbanks, opposed the confirmation of Kay Andrew
and Dick Bower, because they ignore the interests of the Area M
commercial intercept fishery and the conservation of the resource
and subsistence.
HAROLD GILLAM, Fairbanks, encouraged the legislature to reject the
whole Board of Fish, because it has ignored the concerns of the
interior fisheries for too long and the salmon stocks have been on
a serious decline for the past several years. One of the Board
members has a conflict of interest which would preclude his ability
to make a judgement on issues of conservation.
Number 440
DEBRA LYONS, former member of the Board of Fisheries, commented
that the Board of Fisheries process is very degrading regarding the
way the appointments are fought over. Board members should be as
open minded as possible to guard against making up their mind until
all the information is in. The public does not have confidence if
they know certain members were placed on the Board to serve a
particular agenda.
MS. LYONS said the ADF&G's funding is deplorable. She asked how
the Board members could make good decisions when they don't have
good information.
She said when this amount of fighting occurs over allocations, you
can be guaranteed that one thing is suffering and that is the
resource itself.
She opposed Larry Engel, because his former conduct makes his
appointment totally ludicrous. She supported Kay Andrew and Dick
Bower, commenting that the False Pass Issue was tearing the state
apart.
Number 491
GORDON JENSEN, Petersburg, said he spent 50 years as a commercial
fisherman and 8 years as a sport fishermen. He supported Kay
Andrew.
LARRY KEENER, Kenai, opposed the appointments of Dick Bower and
Larry Engel, because they are geographic appointments. They are
also being appointed because of their political views on sport
fishing.
NOEL WOODS, President, Matanuska Valley Sportsmen, supported Larry
Engel. He said they want salmon to be here for their children and
grandchildren and Mr. Engel has worked toward this goal his entire
professional life.
JIM HERMAN, Cook Inlet fisherman, said he knew Larry Engel for many
years. His expertise in fisheries is unlimited.
JEAN WOODS, Mat-Su, said she has known Larry Engel for over 20
years. His priority has always been the well being of the
resource. She urged them to confirm his appointment to the Board
of Fish.
LEE PUTMAN, Ketchikan sports fisherman, said the way sports
fishermen have been treated by the Board has been pretty poor. Both
Larry Engel and Dick Bower are representatives of the guided sport
fishing industry and he felt they should not be appointed. He felt
that Kay Andrew was the only one who would listen to the residents,
sport fishermen, and personal use fishermen of the state.
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked what was the difference between a sport
fisherman and a personal use fisherman. MR. PUTMAN said he thought
there should be a personal use category for resident Alaskans who
want to feed their families and use sports fishing gear to do it.
Right now there are no provisions for that. He was hoping Kay
Andrew could help with this issue.
SENATOR ZHAROFF said there seems to be a major confusion about what
categories there are under "sport fisherman."
TAPE 94-38, SIDE B
Number 580
SENATOR ZHAROFF noted during their discussion that it seems that
there are a number of categories under sport fishermen and some of
them are commercial in nature. He thought we should keep those
thoughts in mind.
CHARLES POLK, Southeast fisherman for 35 years, supported Kay
Andrew, because she is the type of person who makes a hard decision
and doesn't have an agenda. She does her homework, listens, and
votes her conscience. She has integrity and she is honest.
BETH STEWART, Director, Natural Resources Department, Aleutians
East Borough, supported all the Board of Fisheries candidates. She
is here today to especially urge them to vote for Kay Andrew's
confirmation. It is clear that she has come under attack because
she did not support the efforts to significantly reduce the chum
cap in the June fishery along the south peninsula. This issue has
been before the Board 3 times since last October. The amount of
pressure has been tremendous. Ms. Andrew ran a good meeting under
this pressure, voted without regard to impact her vote might have
on her chances for confirmation.
What concerns her most about the process is that one nominee is
being singled out in this way.
JERRY MCCUNE, United Fisherman of Alaska, said he thought the
process wasn't working right when you let nominees go to meetings
and vote on issues before they are confirmed. He said they should
be confirmed right away to avoid situations like this. He
supported Kay Andrew. Being Chairman of the Board is very
difficult and she has kept the process going by allowing the public
additional time to speak over the objections of other Board
members. She is a fair and knowledgeable person.
UFA was neutral on Mr. Bower, he said, until the last meeting when
they thought he didn't understand the constitution of the State of
Alaska or the Board policies, since he ranked commercial users
behind non-resident sports fishermen and other people from the
lower 48. They now oppose him.
UFA opposed Larry Engel's confirmation based on his appointment
record with the Mat-Su Borough as a fisheries consultant. The
question needs to be asked, after fighting so hard against the
commercial fishing industry in the Cook Inlet area, how can he be
objective and impartial on Cook Inlet and other commercial
fisheries around the state.
Number 492
FRANK CHARLES, Executive Director, Coastal River Fisheries
Alliance, opposed Kay Andrew, because she voted against a chum cap
in area m, based on her faulty reasoning. In addition, she was not
at all supportive of any restrictive measures in Kodiak at
Shelikoff to protect migrating Cook Inlet sockeye. He supported
Larry Engel and took no position on Dick Bower.
LARRY ENGEL, Board nominee, said one point he wanted to make is
that Kay Andrew conducted a fair and reasonable meeting. He
thought she did a very good job. He found accusations against her
to be false. It was a very emotional issue that they were dealing
with and she did a good job of keeping control of the meeting. Her
abilities as a chairperson were very good.
DICK BOWER, Board nominee, said his comment about fish allocation
was that the fish would go first for common usage and he phrased
that as being non-commercial. Then he said he would place the
commercial after that. These comments have been viewed wrong by
some of the public. He believed that an equitable and fair
allocation needs to be made.
Regarding Kay Andrew, he said she ran a very good meeting that
often went until late at night for 15 days. She gave everyone a
chance to be heard. The comments that are being made about her are
of a personal nature and he hoped they would not be overly
influenced by them.
KAY ANDREW, Board nominee, said she didn't vote for southeast
Alaska. If she were going to vote to benefit her fishery, she
would have voted the other way. She said she had been involved in
the Board process for many years - on the other side of the table.
She was on the Advisory Committee for 9 years in Ketchikan and
served part of that time as chairman. Also, she was on the
regional council.
She brought the proposal booklet that deals with the six proposals
the Department put through. The Board did not consider the
Commissioner's requests.
Number 388
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked how many other issues were up at the March
meeting. MS. ANDREW explained that this meeting was different than
the other, because of the controversy over the issues. So they
split the meeting into 3 segments.
SENATOR LEMAN asked Mr. Engel why he minimized his involvement with
Mat-Su by not putting it on his resume' and asked if he thought he
could, as a Board member, reach fair conclusions with the biases he
brings with him from his previous life.
MR. ENGEL said he became involved with the Mat-Su Borough as a
fisheries consultant. The reason he was retained was because of
severe conservation problems they were having with native stocks in
the Susitna Basin. That system had failed to get its minimum
escapement goal for 5 of the last 7 years. He was hired to get the
stocks back into a more sustainable yield type goal.
SENATOR LEMAN asked him what his role was in the formulation of SB
366 and HB 241, allocation of 15% of the fish to the sport fishing
groups in Cook Inlet. MR. ENGEL said that allocation is best left
in the hands of the Board of Fish and not the legislature. He
thought the bill reflected the frustration felt by many people in
the Mat-Su Borough with the Board of Fish because of the fish
interception problem.
SENATOR LEMAN said that the record was fairly clear that he was
involved in, at least, the recommendation of the defeat of Debra
Lyons. He asked if he played a similar role in the defeat of the
renomination of Tom Eliason and Irv Carlisle. MR. ENGEL, said as
an advisor for the Mat-Su Borough, he talked to various fishing
groups who asked him not to support those 2 individuals.
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked what was his definition of a commercial
fisherman. MR. ENGEL said there were commercial fishermen who
harvest fish and sell them and there were non-commercial fishermen
who use those fish for other purposes.
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked if there was an aspect of the sport fisheries
he considered to be a commercial enterprise. MR. ENGEL replied
that harvesting and selling the fish was what he considered
commercial. In his judgement a person who transports individuals
from one place to another for the purpose of harvesting fish was a
commercial business.
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked if he had any suggestions to curtail that
activity to enhance the depleting stocks of a given area. MR.
ENGEL replied that if there is a depleted stock in any area, all
user groups having an impact should bear the burden of
conservation.
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked him what he was doing to curtail that
activity. MR. ENGEL said he would look at all groups, commercial
and sport.
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked MS. ANDREW to comment on the Ketchikan
meeting where he heard that some advisors members walked way saying
they didn't have an opportunity to participate.
MS. ANDREW said she was very concerned when, about 5 years ago, the
Advisory Committees started going down. When she became chairman,
that was one of the first things she asked her fellow board members
to change. For an Advisory Committee to be given only 5 minutes to
present their hours and hours of work is unrealistic. She gave
them back their 15 minutes and sometimes more. The new Board tried
to get advisory people involved in the meetings. She is very
supportive of making sure the Board members are acceptable to the
Advisory committees and giving them the room and time for meetings.
MR. BOWER responded that he, too, felt the Advisory Committees
needed to play an even more important role in the Board process.
TAPE 94-39, SIDE A
Number 001
He wanted them to be a stronger part of the decision making process
that might relieve the Board, itself, from long and drawn out
deliberations.
MR. ENGEL said he would echo the views of Kay Andrew and Dick
Bower.
SENATOR LEMAN said he was heartened by his response to the question
of priorities.
MR. ENGEL said he hoped they could have equity as much as possible
among the various users. He said we have serious resource issues
in our state, but that the most serious are people's political and
economic issues.
Number 154
SENATOR LEMAN asked him what specific things he would like to see
addressed in Cook Inlet if they were reopened out of the normal
three year cycle it is on.
MR. ENGEL said when the Kenai River Sockeye issue was reviewed the
sportsmen in the Cook Inlet area felt they had not been listened
to. This is the feeling behind the legislation that has been
introduced regarding allocation.
MR. BOWER agreed with Mr. Engel. He said one of the reasons he is
sitting on the Board is because of the frustrations with the Cook
Inlet fisheries situation. He has developed a draft statement
which included a comprehensive review and development of a
comprehensive fisheries management plan for Cook Inlet. All of the
people who have an interest in this common resource should be heard
and should be involved in the overall planning.
MS. ANDREW commented that part of the process is that you can't
make everyone happy all the time. She would ask the legislature to
confirm a person on any of their Boards or Commissions as soon as
possible after their appointment to avoid the public using issues
for supporting or not supporting a nominee.
Number 306
SENATOR LEMAN noted the court decision where the Board can identify
non-subsistence areas is in conflict with federal law. He
understands this is going backwards which is unacceptable and
unreasonable and not at all what is intended, even by strong
proponents of subsistence. He asked if we are just subject to the
whims of federal rules or is there something the Board can do about
subsistence.
MS. ANDREW said the Board has been called to a special meeting on
April 28 to look at the court ruling. She thought the state had
taken a stand on subsistence and the legislature, as a body, would
have to decide whether we will try to come into compliance with the
federal government or whether we will stay the way we are.
Number 358
SENATOR ZHAROFF asked Dr. Bower if he had any special interest or
ownership in a lodge on the Kenai River or anywhere else. DR.
BOWER said he did not have any financial or personal interest in
any kind of lodge or commercial fishing operation of any kind.
MR. ENGEL stated he had no financial ties to any lodge or guiding
activity. He participates actively as a sport fisherman.
MS. ANDREW stated that her husband is a drift gillnet fisherman on
the U.S./Canada border. She does not hold any limited entry or
commercial permits. They raise oysters on Prince of Wales Island
and she is an avid sport fisherman.
SENATOR ZHAROFF said that sport fishing is now entering the
commercial area and looking at the prioritization of the
utilization of the fisheries resource, he emphasized they should
look at including the sport commercial fisheries as a definition.
MS. ANDREW agreed with that and said she hoped the legislature
would look a giving the Board some way to do that.
MR. BOWER agreed also that they needed to take a careful look at
that issue.
MR. ENGEL recognized that there are commercial sport uses of the
fisheries resource.
SENATOR MILLER thanked everyone for their time and effort and their
participation and adjourned the meeting at 4:41 p.m.
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